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John Tamanaha

MSNBC.com contributor John Tamanaha tackles the hot topics in college football. From title contenders and Heisman hopefuls to coaches on the hot seat and recruiting battles, no issue is out of bounds.



OU or Texas? We already settled that

Posted: Sunday, November 23, 2008 8:13 AM

While wondering what Arkansas fans think about Houston Nutt right about now, we’re back to wrestle with the mess that’s left following Week 13 in the college football season.

 

RESULTS SHOULD MATTER MOST:  If Texas’ 45-35 victory over then-No. 1 Oklahoma on Oct. 11 in Dallas on a neutral field doesn’t settle any debate between those two teams, then what does? Any coach in the USA Today Poll ranking the Sooners higher than the Longhorns, should turn in his whistle (Mike Leach probably doesn’t use one, so he can do what he wants).  The wacky lineup comprising the Harris Poll would presumably be more susceptible to employing factors less sturdy than a good ol’ fashion head-to-head meeting, but that group actually produced a bigger gap between the two Big 12 rivals than the coaches last week (2,476-2,375 to 1,322-1,305).  And now after Saturday night’s 65-21 Oklahoma rout over Texas Tech practically removed the Red Raiders from the debate, leaving just the Sooner and Longhorns, we’re hearing increased support for Oklahoma and phrases such as “hot team right now” and “currently playing the best football.”

 

Yes, those descriptions do fit the Sooners well and as we wrote last week, Oklahoma is currently more fearsome than Texas and you’d rather not mess with the Sooners. However, it’s a shame that something as subjective as the BCS rankings will be used if there is a three-way tie in the Big 12 South.  Furthermore, unlike the SEC and ACC, the Big 12 unfortunately doesn’t include a head-to-head component within its BCS three-way tiebreaker, which states that if the top two of the three teams in question are ranked within five-or-fewer spots of each other, the game played between those two top teams determines the participant in the conference championship game. Lack of that stipulation in the fine print could make all the difference in the world next week, especially since the Sooners have more of a chance to further their case on Saturday at Oklahoma State, while the Longhorns spend Thanksgiving with cellar-dweller Texas A&M.

 

All these talking heads on TV can’t have it both ways. They’re constantly pushing for playoff, saying that things should be “settled on the field.”  But then they’re also singing the praises of the Oklahoma and building a case to counteract what took place in the Cotton Bowl at the “Red River Shootout.”  It just doesn’t make sense.

 

BACK TO REGULAR RANKINGS: Although we prefer ranking teams as we did last week, according to who you’d least like to face on a neutral field, the item above illustrates leads us back to a more “traditional” Top 10 with the nebulous criteria we’ve all come to not-know and hate.

 

1 – Alabama (being undefeated -- for now -- has its privileges)

2 – Florida (hey, everybody’s losing to Ole Miss at home these days)

3 – Texas (final seconds in Lubbock still haunt 'Horns)

4 – Oklahoma (could be headed to bowl that will hold their interest)

5 – USC (odd that possible No. 2 team in Pac-10 can be this high)

6 – Texas Tech (consider how close they were to loss to Texas)

7 – Penn State (spread offense went back to being HD vs. Spartans)

8 – Utah (new record for hangovers in Salt Lake City set Sunday)

9 – Ohio State (fifth in a row over Michigan should have asterisk)

10 – Boise State (Humanitarian Bowl getting a helluva team)

 

HEISMAN HOMESTRETCH: One of the newest members of the Heisman Trophy electorate -- along with Tim Tebow -- we’ll be casting a ballot for the first time in a couple weeks.  After all the conference championship games, we’ll decide on somebody for the top of the ticket, but that certainly isn’t clear at the moment. The only thing we’re sure of at this point is that several players who have had outstanding seasons and are deserving of recognition won’t be able to squeeze into the three slots.

 

We’d really like to find room for Iowa running back Shonn Greene, who rushed for 144 yards and two touchdowns in Saturday’s 55-0 romp at Minnesota. He has run for no less than 115 yards in each of the Hawkeyes’ 12 games and finished the 2008 campaign with a school-record 1,729 rushing yards and 17 scores. What’s most amazing about Greene’s accomplishments this season is that he did it all while being the absolute focus of every defense that he lined up against. When you’re coupled with a passing offense that ranks eighth in the Big Ten and 89th nationally, being able to break off an average of 6.2 yards per rushing attempt is quite impressive.

 

LONG WEEKEND OF FOOTBALL: We’re entering Week 14 of the season so it’s about time that the ACC race got squared away. After three muddled months, the Atlantic Division comes down to the Boston College’s home game against Maryland.  The Eagles advance to the ACC title game if they win.  If they don’t, Florida State turns back the clock and gets the nod.  There’s a similar situation in play with the Coastal Division as Virginia Tech needs a victory at home against Virginia to stay alive for another BCS berth.  If the Hokies don’t pull it off, Georgia Tech goes to Tampa under the direction of Paul Johnson, who deserves lots of consideration for Coach of the Year honors.

 

After some solid Thursday and Friday action, the marquee matchups Saturday include: the aforementioned Oklahoma at Oklahoma State “Bedlam” game that’s always a tight affair, Oregon State hosting Oregon in a “Civil War” battle that features the Ducks taking up the fight for USC’s Rose Bowl hopes (although many within the Trojans camp would prefer beginning the New Year in BCS location other than Pasadena), Florida visiting Florida State in a game that people shouldn’t view as a forgone conclusion, and the “Iron Bowl” between Auburn and top-ranked Alabama (which can be viewed as a forgone conclusion).

 

WONDERNG ABOUT WEIS: It’s a good time for Notre Dame coach Charlie Weis to be headed out of town.  But after dropping a home game to Syracuse, arguably the worst team on the schedule (San Diego State pounded UNLV on Saturday to lower the Aztecs’ level of incompetence and possibly give the “honor” to the Orange), the Irish travel to Los Angeles to face USC, the best team on their slate without question. The Trojans, who are still fighting for every style point, aren’t candidates to show Weis any mercy whatsoever.

 

Perhaps the Notre Dame administration isn’t in a forgiving mood either. Losing to woeful Syracuse and its fired-man-walking coach at home represents rock bottom for the Irish, who will drop their 15th game since the start of the 2007 season on Saturday in the Coliseum. If they employ the same criteria used to judge Bob Davie and Tyrone Willingham and aren’t troubled by the millions of dollars that will be owed to a fired Weis, the powers that be in South Bend should cut their losses here and start looking for a new leader. Isn’t it crystal clear that Notre Dame should be much further along in the fourth year of any coaching reign?  There simply are no excuses.

 

 

 

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Comments

Results matter no matter how hot your team is now.  That is your argument.  Why do you rank Florida higher than either OU or Texas then?  They lost at home to Miss.  Florida is hot now, but they have the worst loss of the top 5 teams.  Like you said, results matter.  If you are going to use a criteria, apply it to everyone.  
True Texas did beat OU but with your logic Texas Tech should be rated ahead of Texas. Look back at the Texas OU game, see any realy bad calls? Could those roughing calls and the interseption in the end zone have made a differance? Who knows. In this case it's got to come down to who is playing the best ball right now, next week we will have a better picture. Fot right now it's OU hands down.
I think the three way tie in the Big 12 south should
be determined by points.  The Longhorns beat the Sooners by 10 points.  The Red Raiders beat the Longhorns by 6 points and the Sooners beat the Red Raiders by a Gazillion points.  Every team has one loss against the other two and therefore the one team who lost by the least amount of points against the other two should be ranked the highest.  That team would be the Longhorns.  They lost by 6 points, which is the lowest loss total of all three teams.  
If you're going to say a one-loss Texas is better than a one-loss OU because of the head to head meeting, then a one-loss Texas Tech is better than a one loss Texas.  YOU can't have it both ways either!
The problem here John, is that Texas Tech beat Texas and therefore, has the same argument against the Longhorns that you state the Longhorns have against Oklahoma.  Texas Tech also "settled it on the field."  If OU and Texas were the only 1 loss teams in the Big 12 South, it would be a no-brainer - Texas in the title game.  To ignore the fact that Texas lost to a team that lost by 44 points to Oklahoma last night is just as egregious as voting Texas ahead of OU because of a close head to head 6 weeks ago.  The question is who is the better team right now.
With your logic, Texas Tech should still be ranked ahead of Texas...Tech beat Texas on the field, and Tech only has one loss.....
Didn't you hear Bob?  By this logic you have to put Tech above Texas. When A beats B and B beats C and C beats A, you have to think outside of the box.

Try again
Well, Mr. Tamanha, as Coach Stoops put it, then using the thought process that Texas beat OU, then Tech should be ahead of Texas....  I would think a dismantling of a team that beat Texas barely would carry more weight than a 10 point game (and OU was ahead then too).
Death finally to the BCS?  The argument we are always forced to hear is "how important each regular season game is". However, if that was true, you wouldn't have to put forth an article explaining that Texas beat OU. On any level, except division 1 football, head to head is the tiebreaker. So why not start an honest push for a change?  Blame the reporters - right now, they have a hand in the outcome and thus will not yield power freely to the rest of the world who wants a playoff.
USC is better than Texas...AND okiehoma
Head to head does matter. Look at Texas versus Texas Tech. Doesn't that game matter as well as the OU-Texas game with a three way tie? If OU didn't destroy the team that beat Texas, Texas Tech would still be within 5 spots of Texas so there goes that arguement. In that regard, it would be funny if OU were to lose to OSU this weekend, just so Texas and all the whiners could miss out on the trip to the Big 12 championship game.
I watched the OU Texas game. Sometimes the worse team wins one. First, OU lost Its best defensive player midgame verse Texas. Second, there were three terrible calls by officials against OU at critical times that saved Texas from 4th down punts, of course they made one bad call in favor of OU but that still gives texas two in their favor. Also texas was being stomped in the beginning until OU screwed up a kick return. That was OU losing the game and not Texas winning it. And if you watched other Texas games you'll notice that McCoy had better luck in completions that game, OU coverage was good, McCoy was just able to land the ball perfectly that game which he's failed to do anywhere near as well since. If OU and Texas played again, most likely OU would win!!!
You have to be joking. If you are really going to follow the head-to-head logic, you have to place Tech above UT since Tech beat UT head-to-head. The point of a 3-way tie is that it's a 3-way TIE. Everyone has lost head-to-head games, so applying only one is not fair. You have to compare who is the better team now, plain and simple. And after yesterday's game, I think we know without a doubt who is the better team.
I agree with you that TX is a better team than OK.

FLA is the best team in the country right now, followed by TX.

FLA will roll AL convincingly and is a close winner against TX.


So should we put Texas Tech above Texas since they beat them head to head?  Personally, if head to head matchups are the top way to rank teams, then I am ranking Mississippi, they of the 4 losses, at #2 since they beat Florida.  This makes total sense.  Also, if there were a head to head component in a 3 way tie, it would not matter since each of the 3 teams in the Big 12 South would be 1-1 in that comparison.

As far as Texas beating Oklahoma, the primary reason for that happening is the injury of OU's star middle linebacker Ryan Reynolds. Before that Texas gained 4 yards per play, after that they gained 8 yards per play.  Just like losing your quarterback on offense takes some time to adjust, so Oklahoma is back to where they were then.
I agree that head-to-head matchups matter the most.  Interesting that you make that point, then rank Texas Tech three places behind Texas.  Can't have it both ways.
Hummm - Then your saying that Texas Tech should be the Big 12 South Champion - using your logic of head to head wins?
I think the problem lies in the lack of parody within the Big 12 as well. Clearly the best 4 teams in the conference are in the south all battling for a chance to clobber Missouri, the only team in the north with any respect, for the right to go to a BCS Bowl, and likely the BCS championship.It is too bad they cannot have the Big 12 championship game between the top 2 (or 3) teams in the conference.
If you can't move OU around Texas, then you can't mover Texas past Texas Tech....
The college football BCS system is imperfect as are all polls - AP included. The arguement that Texas should not be ranked below OU makes as much sense as Tech not being ranked below Texas. But OU threw a wrench in the works by thrashing Tech. Good or bad, as long as we have to use polls, the best team in the Big 12 south as of this week is OU.
By your logic, Texas Tech should be ranked higher than Texas becasue as per your commeents 'good ol head to haed meetings should determine who is the better team'.

How can you use the same set of logic to justify Texas Over Oklahoma but not Texas Tech over Texas. A win is a win by any account.
Hey Dummy! If you can't move Oklahoma ahead of Texas, Then you can't drop Texas Tech below Texas! Duh!!
Finally, some who uses results on the field inthe comparison of TX and OK.  You also could have brought up TX had a brutal 4 game stretch, of whcih TT was the last, whereas OK have them spread out and with a week off before the big game.  Basically, the polls should coonsider the whole season, and not just "who is hot" at the end of the season--which is usually a result of favorabel schedule timing.
If you are going to place Texas over OU you must still place Tech over TX. Your rankings do not reflect the huge whipping OU put on Tech. Your rankings should be: AL, FL, OU, TX.
ACCORDING TO YOUR LOGIC, THEN TT SHOULD BE RANKED HIGHER THAN TEXAS.  YOU ARE AN IDIOT.
Picking the best of these three very worthy teams is a rare challenge.  Adding Oklahoma State to the picture, you have four teams who are poised -- barring an upset next week by either Baylor or A&M -- to complete their regular season schedule having lost to noone else but each other.  Having said that, it is tempting to favor Oklahoma because of the manner in which they lost to Texas... the injury to Sooners; LB Ryan Reynolds clearly turned the game, and was a blow to the Sooners D that took weeks to reverse.  Against Texas Tech, they demonstrated that the reversal is complete.  Also, there's the question of point differential... in conference, the Sooners' differential of 175 points (380 for, 205 against) far exceeds that of either Texas (109) or TTech (96).  Isn't that how the pros decide?
I could not help but notice you do not have Miss ranked above Florida. Had Oklahoma lost to an unranked team at home, rather than to a very good Texas team, where would you rank the Sooners. It seems as though OU is being punished for losing to a quality team on a neutral site and Florida is being rewarded for its loss at home to a much inferior team.
Neutral Feild??? Come on, man, everyone who has ever gone to one of these games KNOWS there is nothing neutral about that field. It IS, after all, in Texas. So please, PLEASE, don't be one of those morons that calls this anything other than what it was, a home game win for Texas. It was played in the same location as the Texas State Fair for Gods sake. Don't get me wrong, they are good. So is O.U. Texas won the game fair and square. But.....I don't think that is any more important than O.U. SLAUGHTERING the number two team in the country that BEAT Texas. Everyone that is familiar with O.U. football was amazed last night. They FINALLY came to a big game with a mentally prepared defense that showed what it is capable of doing. It's just a shame that they so RARELY do that. If they go to a BCS bowl, history says they will NOT be mentally prepared, they will be much too full of themselves, and they will undoubtedly get trounced, AGAIN.  After all, this win over TT may have been a "big game", but lets keep IT in porportion. It was a regular season game played at home. I'm just advocating look at the teams and their capabilities. And right now, O.U. IS the better team. Don't use the "neutral field" argument. It doesn't wash.
two top teams should obviosly be Oklahoma and florida...Alabama has been sliding by nobody teams. everyone says the sec has such strong defenses...Fact is..Their offenses suck! Put them against a big 12 team and there defense will crumble. If it winds up being florida and alabama...It will be a slaughterhouse. Nick Saban no chance. if oklahoma beats oklahoma state than they are clearly the best team playing in the big 12 right now and should play for national championship number 8!!!
pleeeeeease, follow that logic and you can't put Texas ahead of Tech can you?? Way to go genius
Its not that easy of an argument.  If we are to only look at head-to-head, lets not forget that Texas Tech beat Texas fair and square. So how can you rank Texas ahead of them?  They both have the same record. We already settled that on the field.

When you have a three way tie like this you have to try and identify which team is best now; not which team was better over a month ago. If you really think Texas would beat Oklahoma again on a neutral field then fine; but you cannot argue that this Oklahoma team is the same one that lost in Dallas in October.
That is the worst argument to pick Texas over the Sooners.  Since all 3 have 1 loss, cant we go with Texas Tech over Texas, then?  Since Texas Tech already settled the debate against Texas?

Fact is, of the 3 games played, 2 were extremely close, and 1 was a blowout.  I will take the winner of the blowout, please...
If that's the case, how can Florida who lost head to head at home to Ole Miss be higher ranked than them, if that's the case how can Texas be higher ranked than Texas Tech and so forth, talk about talking out of both sides of your mouth.......so an Oklahoma team who lost to a top 5 team Texas on a Neutral field should take a bigger hit than Floeida who lost to a bottom feeder at home gets ...oh well just a bad day pass and becomes number 2, incredible! As you so eloquently stated.....

"All these talking heads on TV can’t have it both ways. They’re constantly pushing for playoff, saying that things should be “settled on the field.”  But then they’re also singing the praises of the Oklahoma and building a case to counteract what took place in the Cotton Bowl at the “Red River Shootout.”  It just doesn’t make sense."



How can you not look at what has happened to OU, Texas and Florida since there losses. The idea that the 5th game of the season trumps what you are doing now is ludicrous. And Florida losing at home to Ole Miss. goes forgiven.  Texas was behind OU the entire game till OU lost there ML in the 4th Qtr.  They got lucky and pulled out a win. Congrats. Texas got their backside kicked by Tech until the 4th Qtr. and led the game for all of 90 seconds until Tech took the lead at the end.  Who is suspect. OU has been in 1 close game all season - Texas in the 4th Qtr after we didn't put them away early. When you have to hope OU wins so that you go to the Big 12 champ game and if they lose you stay home.  I don't think so. If the Sooners take care of business at OSU they will be playing MissOU for the Big 12 title again.
dude, u r smoking something there is no reason to rank USC that high. they r the most over rated team out there. bama has not lost yet. then if u go down the list and look at the teams and who they have played it should be texas then oklahoma then tech. the big 12 is a little better than the sec. but come on texas beat okla already. they will play again in the championship game and then go on to lose to bama.
and florida is a JOKE who have they played. no one. anytime they play a ranked they lose.
Yes, thank you.  Texas over OU any day.  I fear the polling will be influenced too heavily by the human weakness for only remembering the most recent events.
So by your logic how can you have Tech below Texas when they both have one loss? As you said they already settled that..... oh wait that only applies to OU and Texas right? Not the other teams. As you say you can't have your cake and eat it to.
You can't try to employ logic in the OU-Texas debate, then make the asinine decision to rank Florida above either team. It's mediocy at its worse. Florida lost to a bad team at home. OU lost to a top 3 team at a neutral site. Texas lost to a top-6 team on the road.
Roll Tide.  Everyone is already proclaiming Fla. the winner of the SEC .  Bama is not showey, but always comes through when they need to. Fla. does look like they can whip any team in America, that don't mean they can.
Now how can you say Texas is the clear winner? They are the ones who lost to Texas tech who were beat by Oklahoma. In a fair world Texas should go on to win the big 12 and Oklahoma should go on to play for the National Title (if they beat OSU)its stupid to have the bcs even involved in the big 12 rankings yet they all agreed to this. Oklahoma has played a tougher schedule and is playing better at this time. That’s all we can go by because there is no play off and never will be for several leagues would never get to play bigger bowls with a play off. You can’t have TT leap frog then say Oklahoma cannot do the same because you like Texas. The truth that is showing is Oklahoma has always been a hated team by several sports writers. Teams have had players go to jail admitted they broke rules at several Universities yet no ncaa official ever said a word about it. Yet If OU turn there heads wrong ncaa are all over them in a heartbeat Maybe there are just to many Texans part of the ncaa and sports writers.
So I guess if UT should be ranked ahead of OU due to the loss in Dallas, then I guess TT should be ranked higher than UT as they beat them...correct?  After all, all 3 teams only have one loss.
Texas wants to stay as far away from OU right now as it can. If these two teams play each other now....It's lights out in Austin, OU runs the score up above 70. And they don't let the horns score more than two TDs during the game. The third TD OU let Tech have with less than 15 seconds left in the game....pity points.
John, for your theory to be valid, then Texas Tech should be rated ahead of Texas since they defeated them "head-to-head".  If you apply a theory to one, you have to apply it to all.  Oh yes, Leach also said he would be voting Oklahoma ahead of Texas - he's played them both so he should know better than pundits like you who's the better team.
John -

Too bad football fans want to see the best teams play the best games at the end of the season.  And, right now Oklahoma is the best team in the nation at least in terms of one loss teams period.    

I am not sure that Alabama or Florida could stay within 14 points of Oklahoma with their best game.  Especially, Florida based on their weak loss.........Actually, an Oklahoma - Texas rematch might be the best national championship game.  -Sonny
With your logic texas tech should still be ranked in BCS above Texas.  after all, they did win that game.
I would think point spread (in this case) must mean something.  Give Okla its due.
frasorbil
taylor, Texas
Last year OU beat Mizzou TWICE and was ranked behind them with the same record. That doesn't fit your tidy little pigeon hole either.
Sorry John, your arguement just doesn't work.  If you have to put Texas ahead of OU, then you have to put Texas Tech ahead of Texas... but wait, then your have to put OU ahead of Texas Tech.... In a case like this, the choice can't be made based on who beat who.  You just have to pick the best team, and right now it is OU.
John T-I am tired of people just throwing Texas Tech out the window just because they lost last night.  That doesn't make sense...There is still a 3-way tie atop the Big 12 South and you can't just discount Texas Tech and say Texas should get it due to their head to head win over OU.  Dumb arguement!!!!!!!
Alabama has been given no respect all year. Coach Saban keeps them well grounded and in the end they will still be undefeated. Auburn is a joke this year and Florida is always over rated. Bama fans know any win in the powerful SEC is big and Alabama has and will find a way to win the rest of the season.ROLL TIDE!!!!!
Perhaps you forgot that Texas Tech also beat UTexas and OU beat Texas Tech. So there is a big HOLE in your argument.  


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